Armenia, arm info independent news agency, April 9, 2009, interview with Mr. Adnan Oktar by Aram Gareginyan
1. The latest developments in Turkish-Armenian negotiations reveal that Ankara no longer views the solution of the Nagorno-Karabakh problem as a prerequisite for establishing diplomatic relations with Armenia. Do you agree? And, if so, what is that position due to?
ADNAN OKTAR: The Armenians are our brothers and friends. The Armenian nation is a very noble one. Armenians are artistic, kind and pleasant people. We lived together, side by side, for centuries. We called them the Loyal Nation and were very fond of our Armenian brothers. They artificially split us apart. There is only one precondition for the resolution of all the problems between Armenia, Azerbaijan and Turkey, and that is love. There is nothing we cannot resolve, insha’Allah, if we love one another, treat one another with compassion and protect each other. We will embrace our Armenian brothers with love, eliminate the borders between us, and they will come and settle here as they wish and we will go to Armenia and open factories, hospitals and schools. We will make huge economic and cultural progress together. In a climate in which there are no borders, of joint investments, and in which a union and unity based on love is established, the question of Nagorno-Karabagh and all other disputes can be resolved, insha’Allah. In the same way that our Armenians can come and settle and do business here, so our Azeri brothers will be able to enter Nagorno-Karabagh as they wish, insha’Allah. We will be able to leave here and go as far as Yerevan and Baku without any border formalities. And our Armenian brothers will be able to jump in his car in Yerevan and drive right to Istanbul. Nobody will demand passports or visas. He will be able to stay as long as he likes and live as he wished. We will all eat together, and talk and enjoy ourselves, insha’Allah.
2. Turkey wishes to strengthen its role in the solution of the Nagorno Karabakh problem. There are even unofficial reports that Ankara is conducting negotiations with France about the replacement of the latter as a co-chair of the OSCE Minsk group. What does Ankara wish to obtain from that? Is Turkey able to offer a compromise for both sides – at least for its own interests?
ADNAN OKTAR: Turkey will lead the way in the region in terms of friendship, brotherhood and peace, insha’Allah. It will protect everyone, Armenians, Georgians and Russians, like an older brother. Turkey will have no self-interest in this. Its only gain will be the establishment of peace, all the peoples of the region living in security, and to see them living in happiness. And if anyone does come forward with a secret plan based on self-interest, Allah will make sure that it fails. Allah bestows success on sincere people. Turkey genuinely wishes to establish peace and security in the region and possesses the historic experience and social and cultural means to do that. It has its Ottoman experience, well-trained administrators and a strong economy. If Turkey fails to act as older brother to the countries in the region, despite possessing all these advantages, it will be assuming a grave moral responsibility. Look at what happened in Georgia recently. Rivers of blood were shed in a day or two. Elderly people were left homeless in the streets. What need was there for such suffering? Would such conflict have been possible if the Turkish-Islamic Union had been established, if there was a powerful Turkish-led alliance in the region? Any dispute will be resolved in a matter of hours once the Turkish-Islamic Union is founded. All the countries in the region are living with unnecessary fear and tension, and that tension must be dispelled at once. That is why the establishment of the Turkish-Islamic Union is essential.
3. Speaking in Ankara about the role of Turkey in the Karabakh conflict, Barack Obama said that Turkey is the only country that can facilitate peace and good relations between all the nations of the South Caucasus. What are the reasons for such a statement?
ADNAN OKTAR: Obama spoke the truth on that subject. Turkey is a country that can assume leadership and establish peace in a wide area, in the Middle East and the Balkans, not just in the Caucasus alone. To be honest, there seems to be no other country apart from Turkey capable of assuming that role. And if you notice, nobody has come forward to volunteer. But by Allah’s leave Turkey has the moral qualities and experience to discharge that duty. I am not talking of any racial superiority. Any such idea would be incompatible with the Qur’an. Allah bestows no good on anyone becoming involved with a scourge like racism. In the sight of Allah, superiority lies in taqwa (fear and awe of Allah). The important thing is moral beauty and superiority. And the Turkish nation possesses excellent moral values. Go to Anatolia and you will see real sincerity, loyalty, altruism, devotion and friendship. You will see real respect. The Turkish nations wants to serve, and it expects nothing in return. It is enough for the Turkish nation that other people be happy and at peace. It will be easy to establish peace and security when such moral values lead the way.
4. The US and Turkey seek to enforce their role in solving the Nagorno Karabakh conflict – evidently, aiming to reduce the influence of Russia. Could this lead to a collision of interests among those three countries in the Caucasus?
ADNAN OKTAR: Russia is a great and powerful state, a noble state. Any policy aimed at excluding Russia would be a mistake. It would be a violation of good conscience. There is no such conception in Turkey. There is no idea of “Let us be strong but others not” or “Let us be rich and others poor” in Turkey. The Turkish-Islamic Union will always follow a friendly, unificatory path. Exclusion will lead to resentment and unease. The unifying idea of us “all being brothers” is most important. Polarization, taking opposite sides is no good. The Russians need to be told “You, as Russians, must develop as you like in economic, scientific and political terms and here, let us also develop in these fields and enjoy all kinds of advantages together.” We must not say “We must be rich “and who cares if you are rich or not.” They need to be told “We want to be wealthy, and we want you to be wealthy, too.” What kind of Turkish-Islamic Union would it be if Russia were poor, for instance? Would that be a union of peace of mind? Would that make us happy? It would clearly make us all uneasy, because we want them to be wealthy, as well. A happy Russia will make us happy, too.
5. What is your vision of the relations of Armenia and Turkey in the future? Do you expect opening of the border and establishing diplomatic relations? Will Ankara be willing to do all that?
ADNAN OKTAR: We want this, and insha’Allah it will happen. What matters is the friendship of their peoples and what they think. The Armenian people do not want enmity and are made uneasy by enmity. They want love, compassion and respect. The Turkish people also detest enmity. We want to live with the Armenians as brothers. We want no borders between us. We want to embrace our Armenian brothers. Why should there be borders between us and an innocent, excellent people? Why should we be divided? We lived together for centuries. It was the stratagems of the masons and materialists that divided us. But those stratagems have now been thwarted, and we are in an age of love and brotherhood. Because it can happen at once if both sides desire it. Let us constantly demand it, and let our Armenian brothers constantly demand it, and let us finally do away with the borders. Armenia is squeezed into a tiny space and its economy is in a difficult position. Let us work hand in hand and build a brand new, wealthy, prosperous and enlightened Armenia. Our Armenian brothers must keep raising their demands for union and tell the world they are on the side of love and brotherhood. Insha’Allah we will soon enjoy excellent results.
6. Do you think that Armenia should give access for Turkey to participate in strategic projects within the country, such as investing in the construction of the new energy block of the atomic power station in Armenia, or in the construction of the Iran – Armenia railway? What is your view of the possibility of major Turkish companies – TUPRAS, Eregli Demir Celik Fabrikalari, Vestel and others – having a presence in Armenia?
ADNAN OKTAR: Of course. Let the Armenians come here and invest and do business as they wish in Turkey. And let us open factories and plants and businesses there. What could be more natural? Of course we will have joint projects and investments. If Azerbaijan and Armenia join forces with Turkey, the result will be a splendid power, insha’Allah.
7. Describe your concept of the Turkish-Islamic Union. Does it imply political or spiritual unity? What are the conditions for Turkey to conduct a leading role in this alliance, or will everyone be a leader? What consequences may it bring about? What is your opinion about the possibility of reconciliation between Turkey and Iran?
ADNAN OKTAR: This is a union of love, a union of hearts. A laic, democratic, enlightened union. It is an idea based on love, with nothing to do with racism or arrogance, that loves all nations and wishes to protect them, that opens its arms to Christians and Jews and that is intensely keen to include them in the Turkish-Islamic Union. It harbors no such idea as “we are the greatest and most powerful race, so other races are nothing.” Allah creates all races. We are all brothers. Russia will greatly benefit from the Turkish-Islamic Union. We already want to see Armenia in the Turkish-Islamic Union, and Georgia. We even want Israel to be a part of the Turkish-Islamic Union. Turkey is the natural leader of this union. The source of our admiration for the Turkish nation lies in its moral superiority, not in any racial, blood or biological superiority. The Turkish nation is a very noble, intelligent, heroic, courageous, altruistic, patient and immaculate one. And it displayed this leadership quality in Ottoman times. Allah rendered them as a leader. And now, no matter where you ask, in America or Europe or Islamic countries, who should lead the Islamic world, they will say Turkey. Ask the peoples of the Caucasus which country’s leadership they would prefer to unite under, which country they like. They will say they like Turkey very much and would prefer the Turkish state to act as their older brother and guide. They will say we should unite, that every state should remain independent and free internally, but that Turkey should be their older brother and spiritual leader. They will say that salvation lies in Turkey, not in America or Russia, insha’Allah. This is not racism, but a feature. I mean, in appointing a manager somewhere, one appoints the most talented, capable individual, doesn’t one? One brings in a civil engineer when constructing a building. But not on a racist basis. It is nothing to do with any racial superiority. It stems from that person’s abilities. I am also laying some stress on the moral values of the Turkish nation. That is why I think the Turkish nation should act as leader. I speak with many prominent Iranians, and they all genuinely want the Turkish-Islamic Union and believe it should be built under Turkish leadership. It appears from many recent developments that Iran has adopted a positive attitude toward the issue. For example, when President Ahmadinajad came to Istanbul he prayed in an Ottoman mosque behind a Sunni imam, saying “This is an important message.” What is that message? “As a Shiite, I support the spiritual leadership of a Sunni.” It was again Turkey that brought America and Iran together in Ankara in recent months. That means that Iran trusts Turkey, and wants Turkey to be to the fore. That much is plain.
8. You say that Europe, Russia, Armenia and Israel will also benefit from Islamic union. What will they receive, and what are they expected to give in return?
ADNAN OKTAR: The Turkish-Islamic Union will protect all the interests in the region and will bring beauty to the whole world. Salvation for Europe, America, China and Russia lies in the Turkish-Islamic Union. There is no need for them to give anything or make any concessions or sacrifices. It is enough for them to want to be under the umbrella of the Turkish-Islamic Union. That will be enormously in Armenia’s favor. Because as a result, Armenia will be prosperous and at ease. At the moment Armenia is poor and very weak. It is economically weak, and its industrialization is weak, and it is duly troubled by this. In other words, there has been a problem in Armenia for a long time. In the event of Azerbaijan unifying with Turkey and of the establishment of the Turkish-Islamic Union, Armenia will become many times wealthier than it is now. Because Turkey will invest in it and Azerbaijan will invest in it. European investors will invest there and Armenia will become unrecognizably wealthy and developed. It will progress to the fullest extent in industry, science and art. Armenia wants that. The unification of Turkey and Azerbaijan is not a threat to Russia and Armenia, but a system establishing the security that eliminates any threat. Because we are also friends with Russia. Russia is our old friend. We have no concept of struggling against Russia. Because no good comes of enmity, but much can be gained through friendship. If Turkey and Russia work together the Russian economy will really flourish. But the economy will contract and poverty spread if there is enmity and rivalry. People will no longer be able to express themselves or think properly. Enmity leads to illness, to unease.
9.There is another statement in the letter sent to me: “The Turkish-Islamic Union will commence with the membership of Azerbaijan, Armenia, Syria, Iraq and Iran, eventually followed by the whole Arab-Turkic-Islamic world as separate states, but merging in respect of the spiritual leadership of Turkey”. Do you think Armenia does have a place there, and why?
ADNAN OKTAR: Armenia being left out on its own would make us uneasy; they are also our brothers. Because we have a shared history with the Armenians, with a totally artificial enmity forming only subsequently. The Nagorno-Karabagh problem, the Nahchivan affair, these are totally artificial issues produced by the masons to divide the two countries, because there is no territorial problem there, only a question of friendship and of love. The Turkish-Islamic Union will naturally include Armenia. The Armenians will also enter the union, because Armenians were the most heroic people in Ottoman times, rendering excellent services in art and science in the Ottoman Empire. Armenians gradually rose to the highest positions at court and are also a People of the Book. That means they are people who believe in Allah and the same prophets. The rules regarding the People of the Book are clear. That is why this artificial enmity must be strongly avoided, and we must hasten to establish the union by unilateral forgiveness, by adopting a policy of love and affection. That is why we merely have to say, “Yes, we want this union,” and everything will fall into place once we say it.
10. How do you imagine the co-existence of Islam, Christianity and Judaism in the world, in the Middle East, and in Turkey? What do you think about the opportunities for coexistence of Turks and ethnic minorities – Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians – in Turkey? Is there another way of peaceful coexistence rather than assimilating minorities?
ADNAN OKTAR: There is no assimilation in Islam. Under Islam, people of every faith and opinion can live, express their ideas and worship in complete freedom. According to the Qur’an, Christians and Jews are the People of the Book. And according to the Qur’an, one can marry them, eat their food or food they have prepared, and go and dine in their homes. One can be their guests and talk with them and stay in their houses, or they can stay in ours. What does that mean? It means a strong bond of friendship and brotherhood. And that is how it should be.
11. What are the main issues that Turkish society faces today – material, intellectual, spiritual or moral?
ADNAN OKTAR: The worst corruption of our age is Darwinism and materialism. People being unhappy, living in pain and suffering, and all the wars, fighting, conflict and economic troubles are the product of the ruthlessness, selfishness and greed indoctrinated by Darwinism and materialism. The full realization of the invalidity of Darwinism will mean an end to many of the scourges afflicting people. There will be no terror, conflict, poverty, hunger or oppression in a world without Darwinism. Thanks be to Allah, the Turkish nation is very aware on this subject, and Turkey is the country with the lowest level of belief in Darwinism in the world. In the 1970s, 70%-80% of people believed in Darwinism. That is now no greater than 5%. There has been a major rising of awareness on the subject across the world. Following the arrival in Europe of the book the Atlas of Creation in particular, a huge change of opinion has begun there. There has been a rapid fall in the level of belief in Darwinism, including in France, the birthplace of freemasonry. This is clear in opinion polls. There has been a change of view among European leaders, too. This change will accelerate even more as time passes and, by Allah’s leave, very soon not a trace of Darwinism will remain. There will then be no such thing as lovelessness, unhappiness or ruthlessness. People will be happy and joyful and will live in comfort and ease. Because their minds will have been cleansed of all Darwinist and materialist pollution.
12. What do you think about the role of the Turkish and Armenian diaspora in Europe – particularly that of the Turkish diaspora in Germany and the Armenian diaspora in France?
ADNAN OKTAR: We want friendship and brotherhood. And I am sure that is what our Armenian brothers want, too, insha’Allah. If anyone is unwilling for the two nations to live together as brothers, then their activities and stratagems are unacceptable.
13. What is your opinion of the PKK and ASALA?
ADNAN OKTAR: The fight against the PKK also has to be supported with intellectual activities. Military actions alone would yield no results. Because these people engage in ideological propaganda and subject people to Marxist-Stalinist indoctrination. It seems impossible to resolve the problem unless intellectual barriers are also erected. Just like the PKK, ASALA is also a Marxist-Stalinist organization, and collaborated with the PKK. The only way to oppose such terrorist groups is by anti-Darwinist, anti-materialist and anti-communist cultural activities. No country in the region can say that the PKK is not its problem, and neither can anyone say that about ASALA. These organizations are a grave threat to every nation in the region. ASALA does not seem to be active at the moment, but give them the slightest opportunity and they will raise their heads again. The PKK is currently carrying out the greatest communist uprising in the region, and strong precautions need to be taken. That is why its intellectual foundation has to be eradicated, as no organization lacking an intellectual basis can survive. In that event, we will have dried up the swamp breeding grounds rather than trying to swat mosquitoes one by one.
14. Do you think that Israel is opposed to recognizing the Armenian genocide, and why? Do you think that Turkey will ever recognize the genocide, and does present-day Armenia (and Armenians) need it?
ADNAN OKTAR: Everybody needs to stop the body count. If we try and count all the bodies that will go on for centuries, we will be laying the groundwork for feelings of enmity. Those who suggest these things actually want enmity. If we start revealing what happened in 1915, who ASALA murdered or what happened in Hodjali, then we can never achieve friendship, love and brotherhood. Insha’Allah we will leave the past behind. There is forgiveness in the Qur’an. Allah reveals that it is better even to forgive people who have killed. There is forgiveness and tolerance also in the New Testament. We prefer the path of forgiveness. We give up our rights to our brothers. If we exceeded our brothers’ rights in the past, may them give up their rights to us. Let us start a brand new era by us We have no wish to pick over the past. We have no interest in the past. Even if we do look back to the past, those who did those things are no longer with us, there is a whole new generation. Are we to hold our spotless Armenian brothers responsible for the cruelties perpetrated by ASALA? Is that at all acceptable? We are not acting with the mindset of the 1800s or the 1900s. We are acting with the mindset, love, forgiveness, tolerance and compassion of the 2000s. We are looking to the future and asking what we can do in the future. We want to build a bright future. We want our business, trade, artistic and scientific activities to be inter-related. We need one another in art, science, technology and all spheres. Why should we be divided? Let us fund universities, factories and scientific centers together. Let art and science flourish. The days of iron curtains and stone walls are over. We want them to be torn down. The future will be bright and delightful for our Armenian brothers and the Turkish nation. The Russians, Georgians, Abkhazians, Azeris and everyone will be able to live at ease. We all need to make our love and friendship, respect, interest, concern and protection felt to one another. There needs to be a complete spirit of brotherhood. It is essential to live by religious moral values if brotherhood is to be rebuilt. In the Qur’an, Allah commands Muslims always to respond to evil with good. He says that the other person will then become a close friend. Christians are told to love one another, love their neighbor and get on with one another in the Bible. It says that love never wrongs its neighbor. It tells believers to love their neighbors and seek their well-being in order to improve their souls. If we approach one another with that love then, by Allah’s leave, there is no problem that cannot be resolved.